The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

[the_jos]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Class discrimination only exists because of an Anet created inbalance in the classes. To use Ursan as a coverup patch is basically a joke.

Don't agree.
It's a community problem.
People don't want to play balanced, they want to own stuff and do that the easiest way. AI mechanics showed that the easiest way is tank and spank.
It doesn't mean it's impossible to play balanced.

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Well then the question becomes, does that reflect poorly on the community for their terrible skill or poorly on the company for their terrible design (or in my opinion both)?

The design isn't too bad. Or to put it better, it wasn't that bad.
The true bad part showed in Faction's elite missions.
And it became far worse in DoA.
But general PvE including FoW and UW allowed balanced play though the four horsemen quest requires some dual tanking or something like that.

The problem with design is that it has the same behaviour all the time. It was abused by farmers, partly solved with shatter on AoEot damage. It was brought back since it had some unpleasant side-effects for less experienced players when loot scaling was introduced.

Now the only things we as community can blame A-net for is that they did revert the shatter-effect because of 'stupid' players.
And that they didn't make random spawns in Hard Mode.
And we could argue about the ways they tried to make DoA harder.
The fact that Urgoz's needs one specific skill now since the Rebirth was changed was already discussed a while ago.

But in general I think A-net did a fine job considering what's possible with AI programming since they started GW.

[Stokely]

I started playing when prophecies came out, and quit right before factions came out, then started again at the end of 2008. One thing I notice, is that VERY few people look for groups for questing or missions (just runs or speed clear or whatever). I learned a lot more about the game when you had to group with people if you wanted to be successful. The "good" now is a lot better, but the "bad" is worse. Yes, the majority of the people who play GW suck. It just seems to like people don't like to think while they play. All this game really takes is quick logical thinking (and remembering what all of the skills do)

But then another problem is that the "good" people (most of them anyways) think that they are above helping anyone. They just insult them and throw a fit if a nub doesn't do something right. Thats one thing I just don't get. Maybe its because a bunch of younger kids play this game...And don't get me started on this new (to me) breed ive been seeing since I started playing again. The PvP elitist. There is nothing more annoying in this game (yeah, you are worse than the most incompetent players). Get over yourselves, because everyone else is.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Why do you feel like you should've felt indifferent?

Ursan was not only overpowered but completely went against the whole point of choosing a profession. If everyone was just going to be the same thing, why release different classes at all?

If you look around in the forums I started a thread that was locked where I stated my dislike for ursan in exactly those terms.

I should have felt indiferent cause I didn't use it.

[Grj]

Originally Posted by the_jos

Ursan was 'invented' because of some other community problem: class discrimination. With the blessing everyone would be roughly equal.
Ursan made it possible for many players to PUG elite areas without a farming party. It doesn't matter if you are Assassin, Rt or Mesmer. Who cares, we love you since you bring Ursan and Consumables.

In the later days before Ursan got changed some groups where already shifting towards class discrimination among ursans. People only wanted Wars for the higher defence, so took those over lesser wanted professions like the mesmer/rit/sin etc. There was also a build floating around which you had to run or people would abuse and call for that person to be kicked if it wasn't the build they pinged..... hmmmm doesn't this sound familliar.

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Class discrimination only exists because of an Anet created inbalance in the classes. To use Ursan as a coverup patch is basically a joke.

Anet could work towards fixing these imbalances in classes with the PvE/PvP skill split but Anet have to actually update the game, shame its got that feeling of too little too late.

Also the player base only seems to notice skills that get highly overpowered/broken for the masses to actually want the class in there're group.

[Xun Rama]

Originally Posted by Katsumi

So what's goin on in this thread?

98% of the people I know that use "nou" etc. do it as a joke. Whether people take that as something that they need to use in serious conversation is up to them. I (for example) don't have to alter my behavior because someone else thinks I'm doing something I'm not.

It does have to do with the overall mentality, but in a slighty different manner.

My point was towards the mentality, not literal.

[fenix]

Originally Posted by Katsumi

So what's goin on in this thread?

98% of the people I know that use "nou" etc. do it as a joke. Whether people take that as something that they need to use in serious conversation is up to them. I (for example) don't have to alter my behavior because someone else thinks I'm doing something I'm not.

It does have to do with the overall mentality, but in a slighty different manner.

no u


The community hasn't turned into complete trolling, not just yet. There is a large amount of bad trolls going around though, and their horrible 'trolling' attemps lead to other players trying to troll back, which results in threads of bad trolls trolling bad trolls. I imagine that would somewhat slant your view on the community.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by the_jos

Ursan was 'invented' because of some other community problem: class discrimination. With the blessing everyone would be roughly equal.
Ursan made it possible for many players to PUG elite areas without a farming party. It doesn't matter if you are Assassin, Rt or Mesmer. Who cares, we love you since you bring Ursan and Consumables.

I totally understand why ANet wanted to implement Ursan, but no matter how you do it or the quality of doing it, it's still doing one thing: killing class diversity. Yeah, discrimination sucks. But what's worse is having only two classes.

Also, people here are gonna have a tough time proving which is "worse": PvE skills or consumables. Here you have consets, here you have SY! and other retarded crap. Nerf 'em both.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If you look around in the forums I started a thread that was locked where I stated my dislike for ursan in exactly those terms.

I should have felt indiferent cause I didn't use it.

You cared about the game, which is good. What I don't get is why you're not as bugged about PvE skills + consumables?

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You cared about the game, which is good. What I don't get is why you're not as bugged about PvE skills + consumables?

Because its an optional thing, I don't care about the economic aspect of the game (I would love if the inscriptions system was implemented in prophecies and factions and if an upgrade and an inscriptions npc was added to the game) and I certainly don't care about ranking people in PvE (which would be an indirect way of comparing skill).

Since I don't care about an indirect competition and ranking in PvE, I don't care if people complete something in a skillful or less skillful or not skillful at all way. I care how I do it and the fun I have overcoming the challenges.

Additionally, I play most of the time with just another person - it's much less abusive having 6 (max) PvE only skills in 64 than 24/64.

[Klem Da Aussie]

so i hurd Team Everfrost [eF] was laughing stock of gw community.

ur thoughts?

[fireflyry]

Originally Posted by kostolomac

Every area is over a year old , even more. There is no chance a veteran or even a decent player can find challenge now unless ANet gives us more new and never seen before content.

Agreed.

If you want that it's easily found elsewhere. in subscription based games.

Tbh it goes straight in the category of people with unrealistic demands considering the format.

GW is now grind.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

But if Anet gimp everyone it's ok.

I got you.

Nope...over your head me thinks.

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

And what's going to cause more trouble: having to cater to two separate game settings, or to one?

That's where it gets interesting.

I expected no less than for you to raise it Bryant but seriously...is HM actually hard?

Imo nope...adding HP, skills and resources compute to little more than new areas to exploit considering that we already had the skills to exploit that type of scenario.

Increased HP and attack speed actually makes HM better than NM........lol

Has the AI changed in any dramatic fashion that actually demands an increase in player skill?

As a result hard mode is a cakewalk and NM is training and title fodder.

Add on imba PvE skills.

Grind titles.

Seriously.

[Alias_X]

I don't really care about people being noobs in terms of playing the game... everyone was clueless at some point. Guilds are great resources as well as the various wikis. Generally the community is/was good? but the real problem was often people rage quitting and being assholes like that.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Nope...over your head me thinks.

Wasn't he saying that PvE-only skills and consumables should be removed from the game, while saying that there is no point on gimping yourself by not bringing PvE-only skills and consumables, since everyone else will use them?

Seems perfectly reasonable to reach the conclusion that gimping yourself is bad but if Anet gimp everyone is ok.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Because its an optional thing, I don't care about the economic aspect of the game (I would love if the inscriptions system was implemented in prophecies and factions and if an upgrade and an inscriptions npc was added to the game) and I certainly don't care about ranking people in PvE (which would be an indirect way of comparing skill).

Again, you are falling back on "it is optional I don't have to use it" which still doesn't solve anything. How about all of the people who DO care about the economic aspect or the skill aspect? While these things being in the game may not ruin the game for you, it certainly ruins the game for them.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Seems perfectly reasonable to reach the conclusion that gimping yourself is bad but if Anet gimp everyone is ok.

The problem here is that they never should have been implemented to begin with so it never would have been a "gimp". What happened is that gave us a super overpowered buff and we need to go back to "regular". It wasn't just consumables or PvE skills or Ursan or whatever, it was a long progression of power creep with those things being the standouts.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem here is that they never should have been implemented to begin with so it never would have been a "gimp". What happened is that gave us a super overpowered buff and we need to go back to "regular". It wasn't just consumables or PvE skills or Ursan or whatever, it was a long progression of power creep with those things being the standouts.

Ah so we getting somewhere - it is a progression. But you cant forget about the enemy progression - dumb AI or not 230 from mystic sandstorm on AL80 in normal mode is still absurd (just happened 10 minutes ago to me in DoA).

What was the first build out there to beat DoA? Obsidian tank+SF eles... That isn't the kind of game I want either - it is completely non-interactive and show no skill (cryway is the souped up version of today).

Both GvG and PvE suffer from the minimalist offense syndrome - as long as you're alive you can win, and with the threat level some mobs can dish out, more and more defense is needed.

For the game to reflect skill, the power (as in damage) of some of the HM and elite areas needed to be brought down. Then remove the consumables and PvE only skills. And nerf the tank (obsidian flesh and shadow form) skills.

And lets hope we won't return to bonds...

How about all of the people who DO care about the economic aspect or the skill aspect? While these things being in the game may not ruin the game for you, it certainly ruins the game for them.

What about people that like grinding? Or what about the people that would rather have unlimited level cap?

I can use your argument ipsis verbis. The game can have an economy or not. I would rather it wouldn't. It is about killing not about trading. I prefer have access to the weapons upgrades and mods I need, the same way people that did PvP didn't want to depend on lucky drops.

Its hard to please to everyone.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Ah so we getting somewhere - it is a progression.

For the game to reflect skill, the power (as in damage) of some of the HM and elite areas needed to be brought down. Then remove the consumables and PvE only skills. And nerf the tank (obsidian flesh and shadow form) skills.

Again, nobody said removing these things in and of itself will fix the game. I am saying that removing these things would be the first and easiest step. As long as they exist nothing will ever be fixed. The game needs a difficulty balance, and it can't have that with any form of inbalanced additions.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

What about people that like grinding? Or what about the people that would rather have unlimited level cap?

I can use your argument ipsis verbis. The game can have an economy or not. I would rather it wouldn't. It is about killing not about trading. I prefer have access to the weapons upgrades and mods I need, the same way people that did PvP didn't want to depend on lucky drops.

Its hard to please to everyone.

Well this really gets off topic and goes into other threads I have posted in...but yes it is hard to please everyone. So why not please the people who want the game to keep its integrity? A game keeping its integrity and balance will please far more people than one that loses integrity and has no difficulty balance to speak of.

[maraxusofk]

Originally Posted by Klem Da Aussie

so i hurd Team Everfrost [eF] was laughing stock of gw community.

ur thoughts?

Well the current eF is. its all pve scrubs who joined to feel special.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by fireflyry

That's where it gets interesting.

I expected no less than for you to raise it Bryant but seriously...is HM actually hard?

Difficulty is always preference. For me, HM certainly isn't hard. But neither is Insanity on Mass Effect, Ultra-Violence on Doom, or God Mode in God of War.

It may not be hard for all, but it's certainly harder. More builds are restricted in HM than when used in NM. The problem? PvE skills/consumables/etc. remove some (or a lot) of those restrictions. This makes inexperienced players stay inexperienced, since they have no motivation to learn more about their role.

Still seeing no justification for their addition, much less when we now have two difficulties to accommodate for. If only one I'd be more sympathetic, but that's now not that case.

[glacialphoenix]

...about HM.

I think PvE skills actually made some HM missions easier than NM ones. Pain Inverter, for example, makes it possible to wallop, say, Kuunavang in Unwaking Waters that much faster - mostly because in HM, mobs have an increased casting speed and trigger Pain Inverter more frequently.

[snaek]

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

I think PvE skills actually made some HM missions easier than NM ones.

i agree to an extent

if u break down the different "player-type" groups of gw...
who really benefits the most from pve skills and consets?
a) newer players, casual or lesser experienced players
b) experienced players lookin for fun things to do
c) farmers and title grinders

and i think most can agree that pve skills and consets get most abused by farmers and title grinders
so it really defeats the purpose of having them in the first place, which i believed was to help the casual or lesser experienced players

why does anet regard farming and grinding so highly?
not jus in pve, but farming in pvp as well for rank/titles

even ra has become a friendly place and more "srs bsns" because ppl want to farm glad pts

(sowrie, goin off topic)

but back on topic....pve skills and consets is nowhere near to a good solution to help out the less skilled players in gw
and can even be argued that it hurts their ability to learn and develop good skills
so why do they exist?

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by snaek

but back on topic....pve skills and consets is nowhere near to a good solution to help out the less skilled players in gw
and can even be argued that it hurts their ability to learn and develop good skills
so why do they exist?

Because Anet has moved away from the skill model...they just refuse to admit it to the community.